Friday, May 17, 2013

Bava Kama 6a - nezikin learned out from 2 avos

There is a machlokes rishonim what is the status of Nezikin that are learned out from multiple avos.
This is discussed in the Rosh and expounded in the Griz al Harambam in the beginning of Hilchos Nizkei Mammon.
The question is as follows: אבן,סכין ומשא  that fell down and cause damage after landing, we learn according to Shmuel that if the owner was not mafkir, then it is learned out from a combination of esh and bor.
Tosfos understands this to mean that it will have the halachos of what it was learned from, i.e. this will have on the one hand a petur of tamun like esh and on the other hand, like bor that adam and and keilim are patur.
However, there is an alternative understanding to this The Rosh explains that אבן,סכין ומשא, once the learning is complete from esh and bor, are then completely like bor. Esh was used to learn out that one is chayav but it is a pure bor in terms of halacha. This actually also works well with what we learned in shiur that even according to Rav, he also really learns out even sakin umasa from a combination of bor and shor (mentioned as shitas Rashbam in tosfos 3b), just acc to him, after we learn it, they are pure shor as opposed to bor in terms of the halacha. And according to Shmuel, it is a pure bor after the derivation.
The Griz explains this approach as follows: the petur of tamun is a גזירת הכתוב and limited to only an item that has a שם אש but something that אש was used to learn it out does not make it אש and therefore the petur does not apply. This would be true in a reverse case as well, where the item is defined as esh and bor was used to learn it out, i.e אבן,סכין ומשא that cause damage while airborn. However, Tosfos disagrees and says whatever is the source to learn out the din that you are chayav, must also reflect on the parameters of what you are chayav for.
The Rosh's explanation also enables us to have an alternate peshat to Tosfos 3b on top that says we can only learn from keren to even sakin umasa since only keren is chayav in רשות הרבים. But if we say that the נלמד does not have to have all the halachos of what it learned from applied to it, then we are ok to learn even from shen or regel.
Similarly, the Griz explains that תולדותיהם כיוצא בהם או לאו כיצא בהם according to the Rosh is really asking the following: do the toldos of the avos have the exact status as the avos in terms of all the halachos that are unique to each one or not, or are they merely learned out from the av but they dont have the same שם as the av and therefore would not have all the unique dinim. And the answer of the gemara is that since all the toldos have all the characterstics of the av, therefore they have all the unique halachos as well.

16 comments:

Guo Guo said...

guowenhao20150326
kate spade outlet
cheap nba jerseys
babyliss
fitflop shoes
links of london
louis vuitton uk
toms
nfl jerseys wholesale
ray ban
longchamp handbags
lacoste shirts
herve leger
coach factory outlet
louboutin shoes
tiffany and co
links of london uk
valentino shoes
nba jerseys wholesale
hollister uk
air max 95
cheap nfl jerseys
coach outlet
mlb jerseys wholesale
louis vuitton outlet stores
ralph lauren outlet
michael kors uk
herve leger dresses
ferragamo shoes
louis vuitton handbags
air jordan concord
coach outlet online
hollister
rolex watches
coach outlet store
salomon shoes
tods shoes
lebron james shoes
hollister clothing
mac makeup
tiffany jewelry

Shijun Lin said...

shijun 5.20
ray ban outlet store
michael kors watches
retro 11
jordan 6s
michael kors
oakley sunglasses outlet
pandora jewelry
kate spade totes
true religion sale
concord 11
kobe 8
ray-ban sunglasses
hollister outlet
toms.com
louis vuitton outlet
michael kors handbags
hollister kids
ray-ban sunglasses
oakley sunglass
michael kors
abercrombie outlet
chanel outlet
tods shoes outlet
coach outlet online
michael kors outlet
ghd
jordan retro 8
jordan 11 retro
fitflop outlet
ray ban uk
michael kors
hollister clothing store
coach outlet online
jordan shoes
coach outlet
ray bans
christian louboutin sale
louis vuitton outlet
tory burch shoes
burberry outlet

Unknown said...

miami heat jersey
coach outlet canada
gucci shoes
tory burch outlet
cheap soccer jerseys
new orleans saints jerseys
kate spade outlet
christian louboutin uk
koby bryant shoes
true religion jeans
coach outlet
tory burch outlet
oakley sunglasses canada
michael kors outlet
hermes birkin
golden state warriors jerseys
the north face uk
washington redskins jerseys
air max 2015
air max 90
cheap nike shoes
atlanta falcons jersey
bottega veneta outlet
chanel outlet
nike outlet store
nike air max uk
juicy couture outlet
baltimore ravens jerseys
mbt shoes
mulberry outlet
michael kors uk
kansas city chiefs jerseys
real madrid jersey
arizona cardinals jerseys
beats headphones
ralph lauren uk
san francisco 49ers jerseys
burberry outlet
barcelona jersey
new york giants jerseys
hang0622

Meiqing Xu said...

15725meiqing
longchamp bags
kate spade outlet
chanel bags
christian louboutin shoes
football shoes
louis vuitton handbags
fitflops clearance
red timberland boots
polo ralph lauren
ray ban sunglasses
true religion sale
michael kors outlet stores
jordan 11 concord
jordan 11 low
hollister clothing store
oakley vault
christian louboutin sale
nike air max
louis vuitton outlet
pandora charms
louis vuitton handbags
hollister jeans
christian louboutin sale
louboutin
gucci shoes
toms promo code
louis vuitton outlet
gucci outlet
coach factory outlet
jrodan retro
kate spade
louis vuitton outlet
oakley sunglasses
abercrombie
coach outlet store online
hollister co
louis vuitton uk
ralph lauren sale
christian louboutin sale
burberry sale

Da Shuai Guo said...

1Guo daye0928
cheap football shirts, http://www.cheapfootballshirt.org.uk/
ray ban uk, http://www.raybansunglass.co.uk/
los angeles lakers, http://www.lakersjerseys.us/
instyler, http://www.instylerionicstyler.com/
chanel handbags outlet, http://www.chanelhandbagsoutlet.eu.com/
new york knicks, http://www.newyorkknicksjerseys.com/
indianapolis colts jerseys, http://www.indianapoliscoltsjersey.us/
los angeles clippers jerseys, http://www.clippersjerseystore.com/
tiffany and co, http://www.tiffany-outlet.us.com/
san antonio spurs jerseys, http://www.sanantoniospursjersey.com/
arizona cardinals jerseys, http://www.arizonacardinalsjersey.us/
pandora outlet, http://www.pandorajewelryoutlet.us.com/
christian louboutin,louboutin,louboutin outlet,louboutin outlet italia,scarpe louboutin
tods shoes, http://www.todsshoes.us.com/
chiefs jersey, http://www.kansascitychiefs.us/
air jordan 4 free shipping, http://www.airjordan4.org/
ugg outlet store, http://www.uggoutletstore.eu.com/
coach outlet online, http://www.coachoutletcanada.com.co/
converse shoes, http://www.converseshoes.us.com/
san francisco 49ers jerseys, http://www.sanfrancisco49ersjerseys.us/
colts jerseys, http://www.indianapoliscoltsjersey.us/
links of london jewellery, http://www.linksoflondons.co.uk/
pandora, http://www.pandora.eu.com/
chicago bulls, http://www.chicagobullsjerseys.net/
cheap oakley sunglasses, http://www.oakleysunglasses-outlet.us.com/

方松腾 said...

soccer jerseys,cheap soccer jerseys,cheap soccer jerseys for sale,soccer jersey,usa soccer jersey,football jerseys
lebron 12
tiffany and co
ralph lauren polo
oakley outlet online
coach outlet online
basketball shoes
snow boots outlet
air jordan 13 free shipping
tory burch outlet
ugg boots
chanel handbags
uggs outlet
michael kors usa
canada goose sale
replica watches
michael kors uk outlet
canada goose outlet
futbol baratas
michael kors uk outlet

方松腾 said...

soccer jerseys,cheap soccer jerseys,cheap soccer jerseys for sale,soccer jersey,usa soccer jersey,football jerseys
lebron 12
tiffany and co
ralph lauren polo
oakley outlet online
coach outlet online
basketball shoes
snow boots outlet
air jordan 13 free shipping
tory burch outlet
ugg boots
chanel handbags
uggs outlet
michael kors usa
canada goose sale
replica watches
michael kors uk outlet
canada goose outlet
futbol baratas
michael kors uk outlet

柯云 said...

2016-01-19keyun
coach factory
louis vuitton handbags
louis vuitton handbags
ugg boots
coach outlet
pandora charms
cheap toms
louis vuitton outlet stores
ralph lauren outlet
toms shoes
uggs australia
uggs on sale
kobe 8
nike air huarache
cheap nfl jerseys
coach outlet online
coach factory outlet
canada goose outlet
ray ban outlet store
hollister kids
rolex watches
lebron james basketball shoes
ralph lauren home
uggs outlet
canada goose outlet online
christian louboutin shoes
michael kors bags
burberry sale
ray ban sunglasses
tods outlet online
tory burch shoes
uggs for women
louis vuitton outlet stores
michael kors outlet online
coach outlet store online
louis vuitton handbags
coach outlet online
ugg slippers
abercrombie & fitch
kate spade purses

Chenzhen 20160303chenzhen said...

nike air huarache
coach outlet
toms outlet
ralph lauren outlet
replica rolex watches
michael kors outlet online
michael kors uk
celine handbags
giuseppe zanotti outlet
cheap uggs
hollister clothing store
coach outlet store
coach outlet
adidas uk
michael kors outlet online
cheap nfl jerseys
oakley sunglasses
louis vuitton handbags
ray ban sunglasses outlet
oakley sunglasses
michael kors outlet
coach factorty outlet
coach factory outlet
cheap jordans
ray ban
christian louboutin sale
rolex watches
ed hardy outlet
kate spade purses
air max 95
louis vuitton outlet
nike trainers sale
ray ban sunglasses
ray ban sunglasses
uggs outlet
louis vuitton purses
ugg on sale
louis vuitton
louis vuitton outlet online
ralph lauren
20160329chenzhen

Unknown said...

michael kors handbags
ysl outlet
lululemon outlet
giuseppe zanotti outlet
canada goose jackets
nike outlet store
coach handbags
beats by dr dre
nike roshe run
air jordan 13
cartier watches
true religion jeans
rolex outlet
tory burch outlet
louis vuitton pas cher
louis vuitton outlet
ray ban sunglasses
michael kors wholesale
yeezy boost
ray ban sunglasses
cheap uggs
canada goose outlet
chicago blackhawks
tory burch shoes
oakley sunglasses
longchamp outlet
ferragamo shoes
juicy couture outlet
toms shoes
mont blanc pens
ugg boots
replica watches
longchamp outlet
mulberry bags
nike air max 2015
chanyuan0913

xumeiqing said...

20161019meiqing
fitflops sale clearance
coach outlet
ray ban sunglasses
birkenstock sandals
oakley sunglasses
ysl outlet online
moncler outlet
oakley sunglasses
michael kors outlet
coach outlet

Unknown said...

christian louboutin shoes
oakley sunglasses
nike blazer
lebron james shoes
kobe 9 elite
nike trainers
canada goose jackets
oklahoma city thunder jerseys
carolina panthers jersey
cheap nfl jerseys wholesale

raybanoutlet001 said...

louis vuitton pas cher
oakland raiders jerseys
ecco shoes
cincinnati bengals jerseys
ray ban sunglasses
baltimore ravens jerseys
seattle seahawks jerseys
cheap nfl jerseys wholesale
golden state warriors
oakley sunglasses

dong dong23 said...

polo ralph lauren
michael kors handbags
oakley vault
coach factory online
oakley sunglasses
adidas yeezy 350 boost
michael kors bags
nike running shoes
kate spade handbags
polo ralph lauren outlet
20174.22wengdongdong

caiyan said...

nfl jerseys
true religion jeans
rolex watches
michael kors bags
michael kors outlet
nike outlet store
mlb jerseys wholesale
hollister clothing
ed hardy sale
michael kors outlet online
0505shizhong

Gege Dai said...

mulberry outlet,mulberry handbags outlet
coach outlet online
oakley sunglasses wholesale
cheap oakley sunglasses
ralph lauren outlet
camisetas futbol baratas
lebron shoes
ralph lauren
adidas nmd
mlb jerseys
20170525ck