Thursday, November 29, 2007

Why doesn't the Gemara ask a contradiction from מתנה? (Bava Metzia 19a)

My chavrusa asked this morning why doesn't the Gemara ask a contradiction between the ברייתא and the Mishna by the case of מתנות? The Mishna says מתנה as one of the cases and the ברייתא says the case of מתנות as well. By מתנה you can't answer like the Gemara did for דייתיקי.

The Rishonim seem to have 2 approaches to answer the question.

1. There is a מחלוקת Rashi and Tosafos what is pshat in אביי when he explains what the ברייתא means by מתנה that it is מהיום ולאחר מיתה. Rashi understands that he is מקנה the גוף of the קרקע now and he retains the פירות until his death. Because he gave away the גוף of the קרקע now, he can not back out from this מתנה as opposed to a מתנת שכיב מרע, where he can always back out. Tosafos asks on Rashi, if he can't back out how can the gemara compare it to a מתנת ?שכיב מרע Therefore Tosafos says that מהיום ולאחר מיתה includes a תנאי that he can back out until he dies.

Based on this the Tosafos Harosh and others answer the question as follows. They explain that מתנה in the Mishna is like אביי, a case of מהיום ולאחר מיתה and he can back out (לשיטתם). Therefore there is no contradiction between the Mishna and the ברייתא as ר' אבא בר ממל answered. The Mishna (even by מתנה) is where he can be חוזר and therefore a שטר with an earlier date doesn't help him while the ברייתא is talking about a regular מתנה where he cannot be חוזר and therefore even if he says תנו אין נותנים because we are afraid that he never gave him the שטר and in the meantime he gave it away to someone else. Therefore if we give back the שטר we are going to be מפסיד the second guy.

2. Rashi says (י"ט: ד"ה קמא זכה at the end) that we only make the דיוק of אם אמר תנו נותנים where the reason of the Mishna doesn't apply, namely by a שכיב מרע since because he can back out it doesn't matter whether he gave the שטר or not. However, by מתנה where the reason of שאני אומר that he didn't give the שטר applies even if he said תנו, even of he said תנו we are not מחזיר.

This is difficult for a number of reasons. The Gemara doesn't make this distinction. The Gemara seems to say that the דיוק of אמר תנו נותנים applies to all the cases. If it applies to everything but מתנה (which it does) why does the gemara list מתנה with the other cases? The דיוק also seems to be based on the language of the Mishna, the same language is used by מתנה as the other cases.

11 comments:

Coach Factory said...

kate spade outlet, prada handbags, coach purses, coach factory, michael kors, ray ban sunglasses, tiffany and co, michael kors outlet online, longchamp handbags, tory burch outlet, burberry outlet online, ray ban, michael kors outlet, oakley sunglasses, gucci outlet, ray ban sunglasses, jordan shoes, louis vuitton outlet online, longchamp handbags, toms shoes, louboutin, polo ralph lauren outlet, coach outlet, michael kors outlet online, chanel handbags, chanel handbags, kate spade handbags, louis vuitton handbags, oakley sunglasses, true religion outlet, michael kors, longchamp outlet, true religion jeans, louboutin, nike shoes, polo ralph lauren outlet, true religion, cheap michael kors, nike free, oakley sunglasses, nike air max, air max, coach outlet store, michael kors handbags clearance, prada outlet

Coach Factory said...

mac cosmetics, ray ban pas cher, timberland, mulberry, supra shoes, yoga pants, nike air max, north face outlet, burberry, vans, louboutin, new balance shoes, montre pas cher, nike huarache, abercrombie and fitch, birkin bag, converse shoes, longchamp, nike free, north face jackets, air max, beats by dre, louis vuitton, lancel, hollister, karen millen, longchamp, nfl jerseys, michael kors, abercrombie and fitch, mont blanc, rolex watches, ralph lauren, juicy couture outlet, louis vuitton, wedding dresses, oakley pas cher, juicy couture outlet, ralph lauren, hermes, hogan, new balance pas cher, hollister, roshe run, lululemon, nike trainers, reebok outlet, converse pas cher, nike roshe, louis vuitton

Coach Factory said...

uggs on sale, canada goose, oakley sunglasses outlet, mcm handbags, canada goose, soccer shoes, chi flat iron, gucci, babyliss pro, oakley sunglasses cheap, bottega veneta, asics gel, ferragamo shoes, ghd, soccer jerseys, cheap oakley sunglasses, ugg boots, ugg boots, valentino shoes, p90x3, canada goose outlet, moncler outlet, canada goose, canada goose, moncler, ugg, marc jacobs, ugg boots, tn pas cher, moncler, converse, ralph lauren, air max, oakley vault, herve leger, insanity, celine handbags, canada goose outlet, oakley, moncler, giuseppe zanotti, instyler ionic styler, ugg, louboutin, ray ban, cheap sunglasses, hollister, jimmy choo, vans

Guo Guo said...

guowenhao20150326
kate spade outlet
cheap nba jerseys
babyliss
fitflop shoes
links of london
louis vuitton uk
toms
nfl jerseys wholesale
ray ban
longchamp handbags
lacoste shirts
herve leger
coach factory outlet
louboutin shoes
tiffany and co
links of london uk
valentino shoes
nba jerseys wholesale
hollister uk
air max 95
cheap nfl jerseys
coach outlet
mlb jerseys wholesale
louis vuitton outlet stores
ralph lauren outlet
michael kors uk
herve leger dresses
ferragamo shoes
louis vuitton handbags
air jordan concord
coach outlet online
hollister
rolex watches
coach outlet store
salomon shoes
tods shoes
lebron james shoes
hollister clothing
mac makeup
tiffany jewelry

Shijun Lin said...

shijun 5.20
ray ban outlet store
michael kors watches
retro 11
jordan 6s
michael kors
oakley sunglasses outlet
pandora jewelry
kate spade totes
true religion sale
concord 11
kobe 8
ray-ban sunglasses
hollister outlet
toms.com
louis vuitton outlet
michael kors handbags
hollister kids
ray-ban sunglasses
oakley sunglass
michael kors
abercrombie outlet
chanel outlet
tods shoes outlet
coach outlet online
michael kors outlet
ghd
jordan retro 8
jordan 11 retro
fitflop outlet
ray ban uk
michael kors
hollister clothing store
coach outlet online
jordan shoes
coach outlet
ray bans
christian louboutin sale
louis vuitton outlet
tory burch shoes
burberry outlet

Unknown said...

miami heat jersey
coach outlet canada
gucci shoes
tory burch outlet
cheap soccer jerseys
new orleans saints jerseys
kate spade outlet
christian louboutin uk
koby bryant shoes
true religion jeans
coach outlet
tory burch outlet
oakley sunglasses canada
michael kors outlet
hermes birkin
golden state warriors jerseys
the north face uk
washington redskins jerseys
air max 2015
air max 90
cheap nike shoes
atlanta falcons jersey
bottega veneta outlet
chanel outlet
nike outlet store
nike air max uk
juicy couture outlet
baltimore ravens jerseys
mbt shoes
mulberry outlet
michael kors uk
kansas city chiefs jerseys
real madrid jersey
arizona cardinals jerseys
beats headphones
ralph lauren uk
san francisco 49ers jerseys
burberry outlet
barcelona jersey
new york giants jerseys
hang0622

kate spade outlet said...

Kate Spade Outlet Toms Shoes Hermes Belt UGG Boots UGG Boots Outlet Louis Vuitton Outlet Louis Vuitton Outlet Online North Face Outlet Store North Face Store The North Face Outlet Louis Vuitton Factory Outlet Louis Vuittons Handbags Louis Vuittons Outlet Online Timberland Boots Cheap Timberland Boots Timberland Outlet Tory Burch Outlet Store Tory Burch Outlet Online Tory Burch Outlet North Face Outlet Store Canada Goose Jackets Canada Goose Outlet Oakley Outlet
Michael Kors Outlet Ralph Lauren Outlet Gucci Factory Outlet Gucci Outlet Gucci Handbags Cheap Ray Ban Sunglasses North Face Outlet Store The North Face Jackets Prada Outlet Polo Ralph Lauren Burberry Outlet Hollister Clothing Ferragamo Shoes Tiffany Jewelry Tiffany Outlet NFL Jerseys

Cran Kate said...

Michael Kors Outlet Coach Factory Outlet Coach Outlet Online Coach Purses Kate Spade Outlet Toms Shoes North Face Outlet Coach Outlet North Face Jackets Oakley Sunglasses Toms Outlet North Face Outlet Nike Outlet Nike Hoodies Tory Burch Flats Marc Jacobs Handbags Jimmy Choo Shoes Jimmy Choos True Religion Outlet ED Hardy Outlet
Burberry Belt Tory Burch Boots Louis Vuitton Belt Ferragamo Belt Marc Jacobs Handbags Lululemon Outlet Christian Louboutin Shoes True Religion Outlet Tommy Hilfiger Outlet
Michael Kors Outlet Coach Outlet Red Bottoms Kevin Durant Shoes New Balance Outlet Adidas Outlet Coach Outlet Online Stephen Curry Jersey Vans Outlet Ralph Lauren Outlet

Gege Dai said...

jianbin0707
air jordan shoes
michael kors outlet
swarovski jewelry
true religion outlet uk
longchamp
michael kors uk
cheap jordan shoes
michael kors outlet
nike air max
asics
michael kors uk
futbol baratas
true religion outlet
tory burch outlet
oakley sunglasses
nike air max 90
ferragamo outlet
true religion jeans sale
oakley sunglasses wholesale
kate spade handbags
louis vuitton pas cher
police sunglasses
tiffany jewelry
nfl jerseys
prada outlet
oakley sunglasses wholesale
louis vuitton sunglasses for women
ray ban sunglasses
replica watches
michael kors wallet
ray ban sunglasses
rolex watches
cheap oakley sunglasses
michael kors outlet online
celine outlet online
louis vuitton pas cher
rolex watches for sale

Eric Yao said...

Michael Kors Outlet Coach Outlet Red Bottoms Kevin Durant Shoes New Balance Outlet Adidas Outlet Coach Outlet Online Stephen Curry Jersey Vans Outlet Ralph Lauren Outlet
Ugg Boots Sale UGGS For Women Skechers Go Walk Adidas Yeezy Boost Adidas Yeezy Adidas NMD Coach Outlet North Face Outlet Ralph Lauren Outlet Puma SneakersPolo Outlet
Under Armour Outlet Under Armour Hoodies Herve Leger MCM Belt Nike Air Max Louboutin Heels Jordan Retro 11 Converse Outlet Nike Roshe Run UGGS Outlet North Face Outlet
Adidas Originals Ray Ban Lebron James Shoes Sac Longchamp Air Max Pas Cher Chaussures Louboutin Keds Shoes Asics Shoes Coach Outlet Salomon Shoes True Religion Outlet

eric yao said...

Coach Outlet http://www.coachstoreoutlet.us.org

Christian Louboutin Shoes http://www.christianlouboutinshoe.eu.com

Valentino Shoes http://www.valentinoshoes.eu.com

Michael Kors Outlet http://www.michaelkorsoutlet.us.org

Coach Factory Outlet http://www.coachfactoryoutlet.us.org

Coach Outlet Online http://www.coachoutletonlinestore.us.org

Coach Purses http://www.coachpurse.us.com

Kate Spade Outlet http://www.katespadefactoryoutlet.us.com

Toms Shoes http://www.toms-shoes.name

Hermes Belts http://www.hermesbelts.us.org

Louis Vuitton http://www.louisvuitton-outletstores.us.com

Fendi Handbags http://www.fendibelt.us.com

Giuseppe Shoes http://www.giuseppezanotti.eu.com

Michael Kors Outlet http://www.michael-kors-outlet.us.com

Stephen Curry Shoes http://www.stephencurryshoes.us.com

Salomon Shoes http://www.salomonshoes.eu.com

North Face Outlet http://www.northfacesoutlet.in.net

Coach Outlet http://www.outletcoach.in.net

North Face Outlet http://www.northfacesoutlet.us.com

Burberry Outlet http://www.burberryoutletstore.us.org

North Face Outlet http://www.north-faceoutlets.in.net

North Face Jackets http://www.outletnorthface.in.net

Skechers Shoes http://www.skechersshoes.us.com

Toms Outlethttp://www.tomsoutletstore.us.org

North Face Outlet http://www.northfacestoreoutlet.us.org

Nike Air Max http://www.nikeoutlet.us.org

Nike Hoodies http://www.nikehoodies.us.com

Marc Jacobs Handbags http://www.marcjacobshandbags.name

Marc Jacobs Outlet http://www.marcjacobsoutletstore.us.com

Jimmy Choo Shoes http://www.jimmy-chooshoes.us.com

Jimmy Choos http://www.jimmychoos.in.net

Burberry Belt http://www.burberrybelt.us.com

Louis Vuitton Belt http://www.louisvuitton-belt.com

Salvatore Ferragamo http://www.ferragamo-belt.us.com

Marc Jacobs Handbags http://marcjacobshandbagsoutlet.blog.com

Lululemon Outlet http://www.lululemonsoutlet.us.com

True Religion Outlet http://www.truereligion-outlets.in.net

Tommy Hilfiger http://www.tommyhilfigeroutlet.us.com

Michael Kors Outlet http://www.outletmichaelkors.eu.com

Coach Outlet http://www.outletcoach.eu.com

Red Bottoms http://www.redbottom.in.net

Kevin Durant Shoes http://www.kevindurantshoes.us.org

New Balance Outlet http://www.newbalanceoutlet.in.net

Adidas Outlet http://www.adidasoutlet.in.net

Coach Outlet Online http://www.coachoutlet-online.eu.com

Stephen Curry Jersey http://www.stephencurryjersey.us.com

Vans Outlet http://www.vansoutlet.us.com

Ralph Lauren Outlet http://www.ralphlauren-outletstore.in.net

True Religion Outlet http://www.true-religionoutlets.in.net

ED Hardy Outlet http://www.edhardyoutlet.in.net

North Face Outlet http://www.northfaceoutlet.eu.com

UGG Outlet http://www.uggoutlet.us.org

UGG Outlet http://www.outletugg.in.net

North Face Outlet http://www.northface--outlet.us.com

Ugg Boots Sale http://www.uggbootssale.in.net

UGGS For Women http://www.uggsforwomen.us.com

Skechers Go Walk http://www.skechersgowalk.us.com

Adidas Yeezy Boost http://www.adidasyeezyboost.in.net

Adidas Yeezy http://www.adidasyeezy.us.com

Adidas NMD http://www.adidas-nmd.us.org

Coach Outlet http://www.coachoutletinc.us.com